Glenda Pereira: 00:18

Welcome to the Maine Farmcast. This is your host, Dr. Glenda Pereira, an assistant professor within the University of Maine and the dairy specialist for University of Maine Cooperative Extension. For today’s podcast episode, I have a really awesome guest who I email a lot and go get a lot of good knowledge and information from. I have here in the studio today John Porter, who is a emeritus professor with the University of New Hampshire.

Glenda Pereira: 00:50

But I’m gonna let John introduce yourself. So, John, welcome to the podcast, and thanks for being here.

John Porter: 00:54

Okay. Well, thank you for including me. I grew up on a dairy farm in Lubbock, New Hampshire with about 40 milking cows. Then I went on to the University of New Hampshire and got a degree in animal science in Cornell and got a master’s in animal nutrition. And as of, this week in June, I’m hitting my fifty second year working with UNH extension.

Glenda Pereira: 01:15

Incredible. We actually had a farm meeting today, so, I’m so lucky, and and I talked to Sarah Allen about this too. We’re lucky to still have you helping us because the knowledge that you bring to the team is really an asset, and we couldn’t transition successfully into our roles without your help. And even without Gary and Rick and Dave, I rely on them some. So thank you so much for continuing to to help us with educating farmers in New England.

John Porter: 01:45

Yeah. Enjoy it. And like I said, I’m doing independent consulting around the New England states.

Glenda Pereira: 01:49

Yeah. And specifically, you do a lot of consulting with infrastructure, dairy farms who are looking at new infrastructure or retrofitting or maybe building an addition onto their farm. And it can be anything from parlor, milk house, et cetera. And you cover multi species as well. So really anything dairy and you do beef as well.

Glenda Pereira: 02:10

So you do livestock in general.

John Porter: 02:11

Right. I always tell people I’m not an engineer, but I’m doing what I would call idea plans. Yeah. And I think I’ve seen enough combinations that I can bring that expertise in and the things I’ve seen to apply to most any livestock.

Glenda Pereira: 02:24

Yeah. And for the topic today, something that I’ve wanted to talk about and cover on the podcast is a question that I get a ton, you know. Like, here’s where I’m at. Where do I go from here? And so I asked you to do this because I was thinking we could cover some of the frequently asked questions and then how you potentially provide some recommendations or things to think about for folks that are either retrofitting or building new.

Glenda Pereira: 02:53

So do you want to start there? There’s a case study or two that you can walk us through.

John Porter: 03:01

Well, I was telling Glenda, my last three visits have been somebody wanting to convert from tie stalls to free stalls. And there’s several reasons. One, sometimes people are just concerned about animal welfare, and some of the production people are concerned about that, and they don’t wanna see tied animals, especially in the organic field. Some people are expanding, and in my opinion, much over 50 cows, that’s about the limit on the tie stall. And then in some cases, we get the new generation coming along, and they see their father bent over, bad knees, bad hips.

John Porter: 03:34

And they said, well, I just don’t wanna go through that physical challenge and looking for a tie stall parlor combination for just easier operation and more efficiency?

Glenda Pereira: 03:43

Yeah. So tie stalls can be very comfortable depending on the size of the cow, right? But in today’s world, potentially, they just don’t fit those cow comfort levels and cow time budgets, especially for lying time that we want. And additionally, with how nutrition has changed so much over the years, sometimes it’s prohibitive to feed the cows to the point that we want to so that we have that maximized production. So how do you start that conversation with folks or even generate some ideas for them to think about in that conversion process?

John Porter: 04:21

Well, we often talk about a tie stall being a single use structure. And the reason is there are not much other uses for a tie stall. If you look at a tie stall, there’s three or four different levels of concrete. There are posts about every eight foot going down through supporting beams. And if you’re not using for a tie stall, what do you do?

John Porter: 04:41

But most people in that 50 to 75 cal range can’t afford to go out and build a whole new complex. So fortunately, we’ve got some creative people like Larry in Iowa State who has come up with a low budget plan of fitting milking parlor dimensions within a tie stall by putting the milking parlor kind of in the front end of the tie stall and the holding area in the back end of the Thai stall tying into the existing milk room. Now we have got maybe under $40,000 investment to convert into a parlor. Now we go and build a new free stall separate and bring the cows into the tie stall. And we are putting the priority on cow comfort, so all the new money and new structure is cow comfort, and we are kind of compromising a little making this tie stall work, but we are carving a parlor and a holding area out of it, Because if you built a brand new parlor, might be talking 2 and $50,000 to $350,000 of that, we do this little conversion for maybe under 50,000 Now we’ve got the money to build the free stall barn.

John Porter: 05:51

Yep. I always tell people these 50 to 70 cow farms, you can’t afford the whole package and somehow we’ve got to figure out a way to phase it. Yeah. And usually cow comfort is a priority. At the very base level, you build a new free stall and put the cows in it and even milk them in the old Thai stall for two or three years.

John Porter: 06:11

I’ve had several farmers do that. Buy yourself some time, get yourself some capital together and then go to the next step.

Glenda Pereira: 06:18

Yeah, absolutely.

John Porter: 06:19

And that’s because today with robots coming in, just in a recent visit we’ve had, really need to consider that. Even though it’s very expensive, dairy farmers have been very good at adapting new technology and they’re not gonna let robots go by the wayside.

Glenda Pereira: 06:36

Right. But like you said, a phase plan, right? I think, you know, the first plan is what’s your priority? So for some people it’s cow comfort, which going into a free stall is that first phase. There’s some improved production that comes with that.

Glenda Pereira: 06:53

It’s definitely, you know, a better way to manage, like I mentioned, nutrition wise and cow comfort wise for the cows. And then building that barn with the mindset of one robot, two robots will then fit in here. And something that we talked about in a recent visit too was manure handling, which I just wanted to touch briefly on. We can have a whole three series podcast discussion on manure handling, but can we briefly talk about because that’s something folks need to be thinking about as well from the conversion to and can they use current infrastructure or build new, or how does that work?

John Porter: 07:30

Right. Because often when we convert from a tie stall to a free stall, now we’ve gone from a solid or semisolid manure to a liquid or semi liquid so that storage isn’t always going to work. In fact, they may need to look at manure storage along with this new expansion. And that s where you ve got the NRCS and different cost share programs that maybe can help with that. But no, you’ve gotta look at you may have a whole different manure type going from one style of barn to the other.

John Porter: 07:59

Because the free stall is gonna be much looser manure, and you may switch to stand bedding, which creates loose manure.

Glenda Pereira: 08:05

Right. Yep. And and then so we we talked did we talk about stall size? Not yet. So do we wanna just briefly talk about stalls?

Glenda Pereira: 08:16

Not you don’t have to do dimensions, but potentially what what you see or where do you see opportunity, where people have built and then they don’t. And then we’ll kind of round out with ceilings because I want to touch on that too. But because there’s a lot of folks who don’t necessarily do the curb at the front. I I tend to see the curb done well on the back end because you have the alley, but the front one is certainly important as well to maximize cow comfort.

John Porter: 08:44

Okay. Well, one way to phase into this is even to look at doing a bedded pack barn first. And I really emphasize, build the bedding pack barn so the free stalls will fit. So I literally just about draw the stalls and then erase them if somebody wants a bedded pack. Because this way you’ve saved the money on the stalls.

John Porter: 09:03

You’ve also built in manure storage in the bedded pack, and you’ve probably got one third of the manure to handle in your storage. So I usually design it for a three row free stall because it’s a shame to be off by two or three feet, but you’d like to convert it. So that’s the very baseline you can start with. There’s also the debate of a two row versus a three row barn. And the two row, you’ve got, more bunk capacity and the three row is cheaper because you re getting a lot more cow capacity with a little bit less, more roof.

John Porter: 09:36

So my compromise, if I’m gonna go to the three row or a six row if it a double with a center alley, I like at least a 14 foot alley between the feed bunk curb and the first stall curb rather than traditional 12, and that s more passage and more breathing room. Generally our freestalls are like four foot by eight foot. Sometimes on the outside wall, we’ll go four foot by nine foot because the head is hitting a wall. And sometimes if you’re putting two head to head in the center, you can even go seven and a half because the heads are passing. So four by eight foot is pretty standard, but you can maybe bigger on the outside wall and maybe shrink it if they’re passing heads in the middle.

John Porter: 10:18

And then for scrape alleys, I like 10 foot between alleys, between rows of cows, but either 12 foot between the last stall and the curb if there’s no cows backing out. But if it’s a three row and cows are backing out, I want 14 to allow passage and backing out.

Glenda Pereira: 10:36

Yep. And something that just, while you were talking about this, I was thinking about water. So is there a preferred when people are thinking about designing this free stall, is there a preferred way to think about water in the barn and have people done it wrong and what is your general advice related to water?

John Porter: 10:58

Okay. I would like to see a water at every crossover alley. And so in the average barn, there’s probably gonna be three crossovers, the end, the middle, and the other end. The biggest mistake people make is on the middle alley trying to make it very narrow. And you really need room for the cow to be drinking and somebody to pass behind her.

John Porter: 11:19

Yep. Most people wanna just remove two stall widths and make an eight foot passage. It probably ought to be 12, just like the feed alley, because you ve got a seven foot cow or a six foot cow standing there and a three or four foot cow that wants to go behind So I would say the biggest two mistakes are not making the water big enough because we look at linear inches for a cow and then not allowing enough space behind it so a cow can drink and one can pass. And I always tell people water is the cheapest feed on the farm. Yes.

John Porter: 11:51

I know farms, I know a farmer specifically who doesn’t have a center cross over alley. I’m sure it’s costing him money and he won’t sacrifice eight stalls.

Glenda Pereira: 12:00

Right, right. Absolutely. And drives dry matter intake. And so if the cow isn’t drinking, the cow’s definitely not eating. So it’s really crucial.

Glenda Pereira: 12:10

Like you said, water is a very cheap feed source.

John Porter: 12:12

Yeah. Then make it cleanable too. Right. We used to make these deep concrete waterers with a whole bunch of junk in the bottom. Now we’re making them shallow so you can either scoop them out or dump them out.

John Porter: 12:22

Yeah. There was no need. As long as you’ve got rapid fill, there’s no need to have this three foot deep water just collecting, you know, residue.

Glenda Pereira: 12:29

Yep. So now we’re gonna move into the ceiling. And and today, we talked about some of your suggestions, but I wanna quickly just call talk about ventilation or fan placement. Do you have any suggestions if people are adding those? Because more more frequently now in New England, see these, you know, increased heat days where we need heat abatement.

John Porter: 12:56

Well, first of all, you wanna build high side walls. You know, you’ve gotta be 14 or 16 nowadays. We used to be 10 or 12. So we’re really looking at 14 to 16 foot side walls, a curtain that lowers from top to bottom that would cover that in the winter, but lower down as the heat gets more in the spring. And then I’m starting to be a proponent of insulated ceilings just because, if you’ve mechanical manure handling, you need that manure to move and not freeze.

John Porter: 13:28

And we’re even finding some heat benefit with heat abatement in the summer by that roof heat not penetrating down onto the cows. So if you are doing insulated ceiling, you want cupolas probably every 20 feet down through the center with a chute leading up to it out of the insulated ceiling, and then another ventilator for the attic in between because cattle give an awful lot of moisture. Right. Even though you make it tight, it gets in there. I know of a couple of barn collapses lately that I think were due to moisture eroding the cords on the trusses.

John Porter: 14:01

So I want a high sidewall, an insulated ceiling is good. And if you’re gonna have insulated ceiling, the chutes and the cupolas, we used to do the open ridge in the center. We’re doing a little bit less of that now. We’re finding a lot of moisture got down, get the stalls wet, and if we can channel it through. Then to help in the summer, we want these high velocity fans, and we figure about a foot of impact for every foot of fan.

John Porter: 14:30

I mean, 10 foot of impact for every foot of fan. So a three foot fan will affect about 30 feet. So about every 30 feet kind of angled and maybe a set over the stalls and a set over the feeding. And if they really want to get elaborate, there’s even sprinkling a little bit with water That tends to get messy because most of our barns have been designed for that. If you are spraying water, you need incremental fan work because that sprays the heat off.

John Porter: 14:59

High side walls, adjustable curtains, either open ridge or cupolas, and the ceiling, I think, has both benefit hot and cold weather.

Glenda Pereira: 15:10

Yeah. I think we’ve covered quite a bit And I was gonna ask him, one the what did we

John Porter: 15:17

but I didn’t mention it’s on the feeding. We used to see a lot of feed bunks. And I don’t like to see feed bunks just like a flat feed floor. And now with doing that, you can deliver the feed and then use mechanical or robotic feeding for And push we usually make that floor six inches higher than where the cow stands. Because if you watch a cow graze, her nose isn’t on the ground.

John Porter: 15:40

It’s six inches up grazing. And then there sometimes is a debate of headlocks versus not headlocks, but I don’t think that’s really an issue. If cows are used to them, it’ll actually help prevent some boss cows clearing out a lot of cows if they’re feeding. So you can either use headlocks or a rail across the top, usually around an 18 inches curve, 18 inches high, they reach over and make that floor six inches higher. And then on the scrape alleys, be sure we’ve got groove scrape alleys.

John Porter: 16:10

And now we’re finding with the barns being so big and the concrete trucks so large, you can’t keep up grooving them. You better to just pour a floor with a broom finish and then bring in a commercial groover after the fact, after it’s hardened. I’ve seen too many people trying to groove during construction. They’ve got these rough floors and literally have had cows cull due to injured feet because their grooves are so rough. Yep.

John Porter: 16:36

And the other advantage is if you bring in the machine and do it, if you ever decide to put mats down anywhere, you’ve got a smooth surface. So I just wanted to add that thing about floor surface and that front feeding area and the raised floor.

Glenda Pereira: 16:48

Yeah. Some really great tips. Yeah. Anything else? We we covered pretty much all facets of a conversion.

Glenda Pereira: 16:57

But if folks have any more questions, they can certainly reach out to you, and I’ll share John’s contact info in the episode notes. But any last thoughts, John?

John Porter: 17:08

No. I think just planning is important. You know, I think getting a lot of people together. I think we’ve done this recently where you get your feed person, maybe your veterinarian, your finance person, and really plan when you do these things. We’ve had some tremendous group sessions.

John Porter: 17:28

I always say the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Yep. And we get so much knowledge from doing that. And then don’t just go off and do it quickly. And if you can phase it, that’s probably what you’re gonna need to do.

John Porter: 17:41

These smaller farms, you can’t afford to do everything.

Glenda Pereira: 17:44

Yep.

John Porter: 17:44

And try to figure out what is the important thing. Is it a human issue in mobility and ergonomics, or is it cow comfort? And that will determine whether you go the milk side or the cow barn side first.

Glenda Pereira: 17:59

Yep. Both human and cow side, though, always have great benefits on the other end, which is always milk production, whether it’s components or food and milk. So both are really critical to the equation. Right? Because the people do all the chores and drive everything else.

Glenda Pereira: 18:16

So that was a great a great point to make. So with that, thank you so much, John. It was great to have you today on the Farmcast.

John Porter: 18:22

Glad to join you. Been fun.

Glenda Pereira: 18:24

For folks who have topic suggestions or want to ask questions or have concerns about our podcast, be sure to email us at extension.farmcastmaine.edu.